Carolyn Baker holds a PhD in Counseling, haspublished four books, was Managing Editor for “From the Wilderness” (www.fromthewilderness.com) and for11 years an adjunct professor of history and psychology. Furthermore, shemanages Speaking Truth to Power at www.carolynbaker.net,a website offering breaking alternative news and options for navigatingunprecedented transitions. She published in February of last year her latestbook “Sacred Demise. Walking the Spiritual Path ofIndustrial Civilization's Collapse“, which is available at her website and at Amazon.She lives in Colorado, U.S.A.

Ms. Baker, is it finewith you to kick off this interview with a little historical talk?

Certainly.

Okay, then seen from a historical point of view: arethere similarities that you observe between the era of the Great Depression andthe financial / economic crisis of our time?

Not only are theresimilarities, but in my opinion, we are in the beginning stages of the SecondGreat Depression. Anyone who reads the work of Ellen Brown, Chris Martenson, KevinPhillips, Catherine Austin Fitts, Bob Chapman, John Williams, or MichaelHudson, knows that it is only a matter of time until the gargantuan debt bubblecreated in the past two decades will explode in the coming years or months,resulting in global economic cataclysm. In tandem with this collapse will bemassive food shortages and an unprecedented crisis in food productionworldwide.

One part of the problem is what Ellen Brownwould call “the Web of Debt”. A massive chunk of the federal debt that the U.S.is accumulating is spend at the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC), especiallyunder the Administration of George W. Bush. May you tell us a bit about thegenealogy of the MIC as part of American history in the 20^thCentury? How did it become so important for the U.S. economy and why did war profiteeringbecame the career of choice in the Beltway? Doesn’t it mean that AntonChekhov’s classic observation will fulfil itself: “If there’s a gun on the wallat the beginning of the play, by the end it must go off”?

We have primarilyWorld War II to thank for the burgeoning of the Military Industrial Complex(MIC). That war was fought in part to pull Americaout of the Great Depression and to establish the United States as the world’s numberone super-power. Although Dwight Eisenhower, a five-star general in World WarII, warned us in the last hours of his presidency in 1960 to “beware themilitary industrial complex,” it had already become a fait accompli for the weapons industry and those who were shapingAmerican foreign policy.

The creation of theCIA in 1947 was ideal for fomenting conflicts around the world, overthrowinggovernments, and not only establishing the supremacy of the U.S. around the globe, but assuringmassive profits for the weapon’s industry. After all, in this way we “kill twobirds with one stone”, so to speak, as we extend our nationalist imperialistagenda and at the same time, help the weapon’s industry flourish.

Along this line,everyone should read, unpleasant as it may be, Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism.This brilliant tome provides superbly documented research on U.S. foreignand economic policy during the past 60 years that connects the dots and revealshow the “web of debt” and the MIC make perfect sense to the ruling elite.

Ms. Baker, I know that you pay close attentionto the phenomenon of Peak Oil. Now there are different approaches one coulddeal with Peak Oil. The problem itself is not new to federal agencies in the U.S. like forexample the CIA. In an article entitled “Smoking Gun”, Richard Heinbergdocumented that the CIA had an interest in Peak Oil since the 1970’s onward. 1 Nevertheless, it seems as if theUS-Government in the new century wants to solve this long anticipated problemthrough warfare. Afghanistan and Iraq are occupied by American troops, Saudi Arabia’s neighbour Yemen seems tobe next on the target list. Would it be still absurd to say that the primarygoal of these wars exists in the plan to secure the crude oil supply for the U.S.A.in years to come?

Yes, I think that isentirely accurate. Michael Klare’s book ResourceWars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict documents that essentially,almost all global conflicts will from hereon be driven by the quest for energyand resources. While to some extent this has always been the case, the realityof Peak Oil and the thirst for hydrocarbon energy as a means of maintainingcivilization’s lifestyle, now guarantees increasing and widening conflictsworldwide.

The justification for going to war against Afghanistan and Iraqoriginated from the terror attacks that took place in NewYork City and WashingtonD.C. on September 11^th, 2001. As an historian do you see evidencethat those terror attacks on American soil and the phenomenon PeakOil are directly connected to each other?

Indeed I do see themas inextricably connected, and no one has researched this more thoroughly thanMike Ruppert in Crossing The Rubicon: TheDecline of The American Empire at The End of The Age of Oil. In Rubicon, the author in some 700 pageswith over 1000 footnotes, documents that the attacks were orchestrated byentities within the UnitedStates government which were intimatelyconnected with the petroleum industry. What we have seen in Iraq and what we are now seeing in Afghanistanconfirms Ruppert’s hypothesis.

We know for example,that former National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinksi, stated in his 1997book The Grand Chessboard, that theUnited States must direct its foreign policy and military muscle toward reinforcingthat policy in Eurasia—the precise area in which Afghanistan is located andsurrounded by a number of other oil-rich nations.

Like Shock Doctrine, Crossing The Rubicon isan absolutely must-read for anyone endeavouring to grasp U.S. foreign policy in the 21^stcentury.

The official narration of 9-11 was never put indoubt by the mainstream media in the U.S. Furthermore, the mainstreampress does not discuss Peak Oil to the extent it should. May this have somethingto do with the inter-action between monopoly capital and monopoly culture as anentire social order? The media and publishing houses in the U.S. “are not”, as author MichaelParenti points out, “merely influenced by business ideology but are themselvesprofit-making corporate conglomerates”.2  That given, isn’t the truth always in dangerif it doesn’t chime with the economic interests of the Big Money Boys?7

Well, let’s startwith Peak Oil. In the 1950s, M. King Hubbert, a petroleum geologist, introducedthe concept to the Americaand the world and was taken seriously by no one. He had predicted that oilproduction in the U.S.would peak in 1970, and as a matter of fact, it did. The U.S. government has known about Peak Oil for atleast 60 years and has done nothing about it because the United Statesis a corporatocracy in which it is virtually impossible to distinguish wherethe power of corporations ends and the power of the federal government begins.No politician who intends to get elected or re-elected is going to talk aboutPeak Oil. It’s not good for business, and politicians don’t like to bring badnews to their constituents. So until the presidency of Jimmy Carter, the energyissue was swept under the rug. Mike Ruppert points this out in his book (notthe movie but the book) Collapse.

In the 1970s, Carterwent on TV and told Americans that there was a deep energy crisis, that theymust lower their energy consumption, drive 55 mph, and turn down theirthermostats. He too was scorned, and was not re-elected to a second term. Manyfactors played a role in his defeat, but his insistence on energy conservationand a focus on developing renewables, was a part of his demise.

I completely agreewith Michael Parenti’s analysis above. It is one reason why in 2006 I beganpublishing the Speaking Truth to Power website at www.carolynbaker.net, a site thatoperates on a subscription model and provides its subscribers 7 days a weekwith not only alternative news regarding the unprecedented transitions we arefacing, but also options for navigating them.

In the year 2006 you went so far to call thegovernment of the U.S.a “Godfather Government”.3 Can youtell us please why you came up with this conclusion? And do see a significantchange since Barack Obama is President?

Yes, I was one of fewin 2006 who was naming the UnitedStates government what it is—a criminalenterprise. Again, Shock Doctrine andCrossing The Rubicon document thelevels of corruption in government and the symbiosis between government andcorporate capitalism as I also do in my book U.S. History Uncensored: What Your High SchoolTextbook Doesn’t Tell You.

Here in the U.S. we havejust lost one of the most remarkable historians in the modern world, HowardZinn. Zinn’s historical analysis greatly inspired me to write U.S. History Uncensored, and thatanalysis greatly informed my book. One reader went so far as to call my book“Howard Zinn on steroids.”

Yes, there has been asignificant change since Obama was elected, and that change is that thecorruption has deepened and expanded exponentially! Goldman Sachs now virtuallyruns the U.S. Treasury. One need only Google the name Matt Taibbi and read hisresearch regarding Goldman Sachs’ role in the financial collapse of 2008, andas you read it, remember that that corporation contributed more money toObama’s campaign than any other.

A friend recentlysent me a cartoon in which a young man approaches his father and says, “Dad,I’m thinking about a career in organized crime.” The father replies, “Ingovernment or in the private sector?”

Another thing that you pay close attention tois food production. In order to get to my next question, I would like to quoteMarshall Auerback from an interview I had with him. Mr Auerback stated that:

“Oil is undoubtedly avery important component of the global economy and energy (along with food) isa key non-discretionary essential without which we couldn’t sustain our currentstandard of living.”4

Ms. Baker, can you connect the dots betweenboth “key non-discretionary essentials”, please, by telling howhydrocarbon-intensive food production is in modern times?

Well, the best way tosee this all in one fell swoop is to watch TheEnd of Suburbia which superbly documents how hydrocarbon-intensive foodproduction is.5 Another way is to readDale Allen Pfeiffer’s groundbreaking article which was originally published asa From The Wilderness exclusive entitled “EatingFossil Fuels.”6

All food productsgrown in the ground by way of factory farming, which has nearly a monopoly oncommercial agriculture, use petroleum-based pesticides and natural gas-basedfertilizers. Agricultural products are harvested with fossil fuel-intensemachinery then shipped by truck to grocery stores. Both the transportation andrefrigeration are totally dependent on petroleum. This system is extremelyfragile, and it takes very little dysfunction in it to prevent food fromreaching the shelves of your local market. When that happens, and it will happen within the next five years,we will see food shortages and skyrocketing prices.

Recently, Jim Rogers told CNBC basically thesame when he said that a major food crisis is coming:

"Sometimes in thenext few years we're going to have very serious shortages of food everywhere inthe world and prices are going to go through the roof."7

First of all, is this crisis not already takingplace in 2010? Secondly, what are the main causes for this dilemma? WillAmerican pundit Paul Roberts be right with his book “The End of Food”, in which he wrote in2008 that the death knell for “the world's food systemcould come from any number of sources: avian flu, ‘a sharp spike in the priceof oil, a series of extreme weather conditions, an outbreak of some new plantdisease’”?8 Moreover, could this food crisis trigger, as Ericde Carbonnel argues in his superb analysis “2010 Food Crisis for Dummies”, the crisis par excellence?9

I absolutely agreewith de Carbonnel and Paul Roberts. The food crisis isn’t just about Peak Oil.It is about converging crises that make so many of the gargantuan transitionsin our current world unprecedented. Food production is inextricably connectedwith climate change and with Peak Water. Moreover, it is about the control ofcommercial agriculture by corporations such as Monsanto, Cargill, ArcherDaniels Midland and others which are producing genetically modified crops thatnot only lack nutritional substance but have been associated with many diseasesand ubiquitous food contamination. These corporations are also affiliated withmilk and meat production—both of which in the factory farming process aresaturated with antibiotics which are producing disastrous consequences in thehuman body in terms of resistance to infection and carcinogen intake.

As stated above, Ibelieve that within the next five years we are going to see dramatic foodshortages and the prices of food skyrocketing. The sanest response to this, inmy opinion, is the relocalization of food production and the growing of local,organic food, including organic dairy and meat products. Here in Boulder, ColoradoUSA, we areworking to achieve the goal of growing at 10% of the food we consume locally,and we are providing significant discounts to merchants and customers who buylocally. Many communities across Americaand in the UKare making significant progress in this direction. But much more needs to bedone much faster to make our communities self-sufficient in terms of foodproduction and energy.

Obviously, we have to think in a differentway about food. Therefore, Permaculture comes slowly to the fore.10 What is Permaculture?

Permacultureis a design system which can be applied to almost any aspect of life—to growingfood, designing buildings or other projects. The word is a blend of “permanent”and “culture” and is all about designing in cooperation with rather than against nature and natural systems. A brief,succinct definition can be found at: http://wilderdom.com/permaculture/permaculture.html. Permaculture has its roots in theconcept of Biodynamic Farming taught by Rudolph Steiner. In Biodynamic Farming,the farm is perceived as an organism with its own individuality, and crops areraised organically with all that entails in terms of seeds, planting,cultivating, and harvesting.

Applyingpermaculture to any design system guarantees that it will operate sustainablyand will be safe and supremely energy-efficient. To oversimplify, we might saythat it is a means of producing much more by using much less.

Is the Sustainabilty Movement in the U.S. inter-connectedto Permaculture? And can you tell us about this movement, that you are a partof in Colorado?Is this a positive alternative to the status quo of living that can serve as a goodrole model to others?

Some aspects of the sustainability movement inthe U.S.are connected with Permaculture, and others are not. There is much that mimicssustainability but is really another form of what we call “greenwash” or “greenconsumerism.” Permaculture is a specific perspective that is about livingsimply and consuming less rather than making oneself feel good by consuming alot of “green” products.

The best place to begin living with authenticsustainability is to study the practices of indigenous people who never neededto buy “green” products but knew how to live in harmony with nature in a mannerthat not only lasts but endures for at least seven generations. Permaculture iscertainly grounded in the indigenous world view.

Here in the U.S. I am working with TransitionColorado which is one facet of Transition U.S. which emerged here in America in 2008 after becoming a powerfulmovement in the UK.Since then, Transition has spread around the world with viral enthusiasm. It isa movement designed to assist individuals and communities in becomingself-sufficient and resilient. It specifically addresses Peak Oil, climatechange, and global economic meltdown—a phenomenon that some have calledconverging crises and which I have been calling for several years, “The ToxicTriangle”.

Essentially, Transition addresses these issues onthree levels: 1) Awareness raising to help educate people about theserealities. 2) Re-skilling which assists people in learning new skills that willbe needed in a post-industrial world—skills which may not be new to ourancestors or to indigenous people, but are new to us because that wisdom hasbeen eclipsed by civilization. 3) Heart and Soul which deals with thepsychology of change and the emotional and spiritual issues we are facing andwill be facing with the intensifying collapse of Western civilization.

Further information about Transition is abundantonline and is most thoroughly presented in TheTransition Handbook.11

How does your book “Sacred Demise” fit into all ofthis?

SacredDemise: Walking The Spiritual Path of Industrial Civilization’s Collapse is the perfectcomplement to the Transition Handbook—or not. Many people who are not involvedwith Transition have found it to be an invaluable resource, as well as peoplewho are involved with the movement.

My book is now particularly relevant andnecessary given the growing despair people are feeling regarding the ToxicTriangle and myriad other daunting challenges to our species. Most Americans,if they have an honest bone in their bodies, have had to admit that theirGolden Boy, Barack Obama, is yet another corporate clone, planted in the WhiteHouse for the purpose of maintaining control of the planet by transnationalcorporations. This past week I published my article “Your Disappointment InObama Is Your Teaching Moment”, just after the U.S. Supreme Court hadlifted all restrictions on campaign financing. While for the past 150 years inthe U.S., it has always beentrue that corporations select Presidents, this ruling sets this reality instone, and the United Statesis now irrevocably, in the words of Mussolini, a corporate state.

As you know, my website, Speaking Truth to Power,has been exposing Obama since 2007, and the publication of my recent article isthe first time that I have had no negative responses to an Obama expose. Infact, I have received nothing this week but emails that agree with my assessment.

Yes, I agree on that: you told people to be verycautious from early on.

I say all that to underscore the despair at thecore of the American progressive movement. And for those individuals who havebeen preparing for the collapse of civilization for some time, they probablyhave read and digested volumes on logistical preparation for collapse by way offood and water storage, survival skills, organic gardening, herbal medicines,and more, but almost nothing has been written about emotional and spiritualpreparation for the end of the world as we have known it. My book is much morethan a book of information that can just be read and put aside. It is a manualfor navigating collapse emotionally and spiritually. At the end of each chapterare structured reflection exercises that provide tools for this journey—toolswhich can be utilized repeatedly.

Already with just the current economic crisis, wehave seen a rise in suicides in industrial nations. When the collapse ofcivilization becomes blatantly obvious, and people realize that there will beno “return to normal”, there will be mass hysteria, rage, depression, and moresuicides—unless there has been emotional and spiritual preparation for thisreality.

In April, I will be teaching an online coursecalled “Navigating The Coming Chaos” for the Post-Peak Living website. This willprovide an opportunity for anyone, anywhere in the world to not only study mybook, but have a place to discuss it with other people, and believe me, peopleare deeply longing to be able to have this kind of dialog.

One last question, Ms. Baker. In these days ofTwitter-Messages with no content, could it be that a lot of our currentproblems have to do with this observation as put into words by C. Wright Mills:

“What people are interested in is not always what is to their interests;the troubles they are aware of are not always the ones that beset them…It isnot only that (people) can be unconscious of their situations; they are oftenfalsely conscious of them.”12

I certainly agreewith Mills on this one. Of course people are interested in all the wrong thingsbecause of what they are fed by mainstream media. How can they be conscious oftheir situation when they are fed a steady diet of celebrity hogwash and liesabout the current converging crises—if those crises are mentioned at all. Thatis why, Lars, websites like mine and yours are so desperately important—toprovide an alternative to this drivel and to challenge people to think moredeeply than the latest rumors about the sexual affair of some celebrity orpolitician. Our children are going to hate us for the ways in which we havefiddled while Romeburned and left them unconscionable economic devastation and environmental destruction. 

At the same time, Ido believe that the present and coming chaos will provide us with manyopportunities for re-making our world, whether we live to see the end result ornot. For me, the collapse of civilization isn’t necessarily about surviving it,but discovering the most possible meaning in it, for myself and for the entireearth community. It is trying to tell us something—that the way we have beenliving for the past 5,000 years isn’t working and that we need to return to thewisdom and ways of our indigenous ancestors and live again in partnership withthe ecosystem.

Thankyou very much for taking your time, Ms. Baker!

Thank you for givingme this opportunity to share my thoughts.

SOURCES: